Grannon Calls for More Cynicism

NYE

I watched a recent Grannon clip in which he says he’s our utopianism and willful naivete frightens him. This sounds codependent. Why should Grannon care whether I choose to willfully engage with a disordered person?

To me it sounds like Grannon is oversimplifying the issue; if I don’t choose to be a cynic then I’m willfully naïve and just hiding under the duvet covers from the evil narcissists / borderlines out there. I think there’s a way to hold judgement on whether someone is trustworthy until I’ve gotten to know them. If I approach someone with a cynical mindset I’m likely to see the negative aspects of their personality (confirmation bias).

Deef

Instead of getting specific or getting more nuanced… I’m gonna try to scale out and expand on a metaphor that came to me this morning Smoke and Mirrors it combines dynamics of repetition compulsion, secondary gain, externalized critic, counter-dependence, projections, women’s shit testing in relationships, inner parts struggle between managing super-ego vs inner child parts (id) that are controlling the attention & mood.

Trying to get back to the core issue, or starting trigger for this back and forth:

NYE If I approach someone with a cynical mindset I’m likely to see the negative aspects of their personality (confirmation bias).

NYE, you have started off with position that you’re arguing against cynicism, while Grannon and I’m placed in a counter position of arguing for cynicism..

Using prior themes from recent Self Coaching Thursday zoom themes… I will start with investigating this presupposition, the implied belief that you’re not cynical, and Grannon, me or the meetup group is too cynical.

I call smoke and mirrors, I can reverse the assumptions and it’s just as true, if not more true. There’s more evidence that you’re more cynical, and I’m not as cynical… Grannon isn’t as cynical…

This is getting into the tricky land of counter-dependence and externalized critic.. a very worthy future topic, but this is super duper tricky to talk about. BUT it is so fucking common, and maybe even toxic and pervasive within healing communities, and especially social media platforms. Codependents simply do the opposite… go counter (anti/against) vulnerability and connection (cynicism & constant shit-testing)… or the inner critic gets flipped into toxic external critic, viewing every single interaction as a threat (especially ones that presented as an open argument without enmeshment)

So… how’s it playing it out, and why the smoke & mirrors metaphor??
(btw this social script is super common in median group w/ professional therapists, on social media, and other western interdynamics, so you’re not fucking special in copying this 1-2 punch verbal posturing tactic)

Buddhist way of not giving a fuck … boundaries internal tool … others shitty behavior

Mirrors - reflection of theme (content taking out of context, straw man/red herring).. appearance of building a neutral bridge, but instead is pushing an agenda (ideology), and shaking the branch of the other’s bid for connection. Escalation technique or embedded message tactic to initially mirror other’s position, then a semantical reframe to confirm and dig in more with prior belief and claim.

that’s fine by me. The codependent Grannon is apparently frightened by that prospect.

Smoke - triangulation onto a 3rd party blame object or mental projection (ghost). In recent flow, Richard Grannon is playing the distraction/smoke object… Also there’s a social dominance posturing angle here… Who’s more enlightened? or claims of attainment vs other’s… But the 3rd party is absent from the conversation, so that’s the triangulation bait/projection dynamic. there is also mirroring going on here too

and… now that I’ve parsed the language, I’ve separated smoke and mirrors as separate categories, where instead BOTH examples had a balance of BOTH smoke & mirrors.. Mirroring is a false performance of building a bridge, or reflecting the other.. while smoke is triangulation through story/object/blame/scapegoat/distraction..

Going back to cynicism… where’s my evidence that NYE is acting out more cynicism, while arguing for less cynicism??? Well… there is a pattern of behavior and long history of back and forth with me, but also with other group members, around cynicism. And when other’s and also me, have tried to personal pleas, they were dismissed, ignored, or not even taken in… then responses of smoke & mirrors kicked in…. I’ll give NYE benefit of the doubt, and place more blame on a toxic externalized critic… it’s a fragile hurt inner child, that’s terrified of intimacy, and skeptical of any sort of connection… so it’s filtering ALL input and emotional bids for connection or just basic communication with extreme skepticism, cynicism and relentless shit testing…

While also continuing repetition compulsion, as not only is there consistent cynicism and skepticism, in most every argument or claim by the other. With added distorted interpretations from the external critic who’s taken over his ears. There’s the pushing away 3rd party triangulation attacks or distractions (smoke & mirrors).. which is energetic posturing, of get the fuck away from me.. keep fucking away… you will never ever see into my pain or hurt….

The lost fragile inner child id is the one who’s in control here, with consistent behavior patterns… while the toxified super-ego has switched from internal critic to externalized critic with excessive external locus of control. OTHERS need to be FIRST be less cynical, and MAYBE I’ll consider lowering by guard a tiny bit. ONLY after I’m totally certain the external world is safe and everyone is totally DISARMED and emasculated. Then, maybe, I’ll consider showing more of myself.

This dynamic is nothing special.. it’s probably an archetypal energy… it’s a script that the social justice warriors wield aggressively.. being played out on both sides of the vaccine good vs doubt worlds… I see therapists use the same damn script, but with even more top down administrative type hubris and judgment.

And most everyone is still totally underestimating the effects of living inside of this global covid pandemic, this is a once in a lifetime collective emotional stressor. It’s not just about covid, it’s messed up social structures, economic landscape, work/life balance, digital exposure, sense of time and place, community, social fabric, etc. etc..

… apologies for using this thread and specifics of your comments as live case studies…. I could just as simply use prior Youtube comment wars to illustrate the same point… or probably even break down a tentacle croissant episode to illustrate the same dynamics played out… or maybe even one of my old zoom meetings where I’ve probably fallen into this archetypal trap…

Codependents are terrified of intimacy…. or maybe the default state of humanity is terrified of intimacy… and we use our intellect to get psychological distance (triangulation) from that hyperawareness of our innate state of being over-exposed.

Maybe this is the core issue?? pointed out back in April 2020… but maybe it’s impossible to find a solution for it??
4m16s

Deef:
This is a quirk that I don’t get
In meetings sometimes people fight to get the spotlight, to be visible.
But at the same time, if I give them too much spotlight they want to hide.
It seems like people cry about wanting to be seen but they also not want to seen.
Why aren’t they consistent?? Do they want to be seen or do they want to be invisible? Just choose one!

RG:
They want to be seen by a loving kind parents or substitute parents in the form of a lover
and maybe this is a poor substitute for that,
They’ll go “I want to be seen! I want to be seen!”
And then they’re like “This feels awkward. I can’t deal with this anymore” and then they want to bounce!

I think that’s a very codependent way of dealing with contact with humans
is cycling through oversharing, counter dependency, oversharing, counter dependency …
a lot of that is down to just being emotionally dysregulated

my hypothesis with codependence is that we actually are terrified of intimacy because we never knew love
so your first model for a loving relationship in adulthood would have been the relationship with your parents
but if they never really loved you, they just only showed you time and attention transactionally, depending on when you were given them what they wanted
authentic love will be completely alien
…
so you’re looking for the game which is to be transactional:
Which is like how do, what do I need to do, to win a piece of love??

Deef

Here’s the clip this is in reference to:
1m13s

and people can review the comments to see how other’s are taking it, there’s a couple that are a little contrary…

I see more that Grannon is encouraging more cynicism for codependents… ergo.. they’re too naïve and gullible..

But I’ll try to go with your argument..
If someone goes into a new interaction too cynical, they might read into everything as malicious or threatening…. not unlike codependents who see narcissists everywhere (often from their own projections)… So for those, their tendency to over-protect, usually lands them straight into the hands of a fragile altruistic narcissist, or some sort of cult…

I’d argue for a more balanced approach to meeting a new person.. give them a few chances to prove and show themselves. and I’d look for behavior patterns, along with how consistent or inconsistent their behavior matches what they say… and if it’s inconsistent, the principle is to start leaning on behavioral observations. Though some people are great a verbal masking; so that can make things tougher..

I suspect the larger issue is more about trying to make sense of an encounter with malevolence (Jordan Peterson goes into this a lot)… and I’d argue that’s part of growing up… Adulting.

But… what exactly is your argument… you’re starting off arguing for less cynicism.. but is there some type of ideal, aim, principle, or target you’re pitching as an alternative?

Cuz someone might take your position, as arguing for people to be more trusting of strangers??

NYE

When this video clip was initially played at the meetup I thought it may have been directed as a response to me saying the group was too cynical. I should have asked you directly if that was your intent. Was it?

I argue that a cynical outlook about the nature of people will cause one to see the negative traits in others.

It sounds like we’re agreement. You call it a balanced approach when meet someone new, giving them an opportunity to reveal themselves. I call it withholding judgement on someone’s character until you get to know them. I think there’s a space between being gullible and being cynical.

Deef

NYE I argue that a cynical outlook about the nature of people will cause one to see the negative traits in others.

This might be another difference between us.. I don’t mind seeing negative traits, or I might be more open to negative traits…. and I’d argue negative traits are often a doorway to a person’s humanity….

My style is to intentionally look for the real human being behind whatever public face and pretense they’re presenting… Now where that comes from… whether it’s an attitude or belief system… that’s arguable… I’d say it’s more that’s how I navigate social structures, my atypical social brain can’t follow all the unspoken sub-text, so I have to do extra work to try to get to essence of what’s wanted and communicated… and my way is to try to connect w/ and interpret the other’s raw humanity… which often includes negative traits.. insecurity, self-centered motives, shame, doubt, aggression, etc…

withholding judgement on someone’s character

My brain is terrible at giving myself injunctions… and my adult traumas were specifically due to repeating mantras in my head that created blindspots….. so my nerves get tinged with the idea of advocating people to ‘withhold judgement’ (oh also, I’ve been in so many spiritual communities and cults that later fell apart, which actively used that promotion)..

Give people room to prove themselves and show their character… but I dunno about going this extra step of with-holding judgment… maybe withhold pre-judgement… I might consider that…

But ultimately… STOP getting in the way of your natural survival instincts and intuition….. get those natural filters and street smarts in line… instead of over-managing oneself….

directed as a response to me saying the group was too cynical

That was part of the motivation, when I was watching the video that part really caught my attention… so I made the video excerpt… but it was also useful for the group, as it was advocating strategic thinking, which meshed with the larger theme of the night….

I also am still a bit peeved (from my interpretation) that ‘cynical’ felt like a label to infer the group was flawed or limited…. which caused cognitive dissonance in my head, as several members have shared previously the group has been a ‘safe space’ (that term also hits my nerves) where they’re able to talk freely, share vulnerable parts of themselves, and also see rupture repairs in real time.
….
[and I was hoping that this would be more of a Grannon rant, so I could merge this into that thread… you could join Kurt in pointing out deficiencies (real, exaggerated or totally projected) of RG.]

NYE

Feels like we are splitting hairs. I think withholding judgement until you give someone a chance to show their true colors is a lot like not pre-judging someone.

I appreciate you highlighting the super ego injunctions. I’m remembering a marriage counselor who urged me to assume my spouse had good intentions. Clearly he didn’t get Grannon’s admonition that there’s no sincere communication with the insincere.

I started with an indirect criticism of Grannon. Here’s a guy who supposed to be helping codependents saying he’s frightened on our behalf. Should we take advice from a fat personal trainer if we’re trying to lose weight at the gym?

Deef

NYE assume my spouse had good intentions

Your spouse did have a good intentions… for herself… self-centered, self survival, even at cost of smothering others…
that’s human nature… People with PD do it more consistently and more often.. but all humans, when push comes to shove, they’ll default to self-ishness…. (other centric default focus can be trained into people, but it’s very rare).

But I’m guessing the counselor was pushing on an ideal that spouse also had some good intentions towards the relationship, and you… that advice was probably loaded by his/her pre-judgments and limited worldview and life experience/exposure…

Don’t Judge and all the variations of that pointer is a major mindfuck of spiritual communities, self help, new-age, therapists, etc… I have found that the people who use that pointer, are some of the most judgmental people out there… it ends up being both a virtue signal, to advertise how they’re more spiritually aware… and it’s probably self-centered, because they’re terrified of being judged by others (because their inner chatter is judging themselves and others so harshly)..

But I’d argue excessive judging is a symptom of poor self regulation skills, not enough self awareness, and lack of reflection.. Usually gotta get trauma and fritzed out nervous system a bit more stable first… otherwise just going meta by judging judgment, creates some psychological space but long term it short circuits one’s judgment circuits, which leads to poor discernment, poor decision making… etc..

NYE Here’s a guy who supposed to be helping codependents saying he’s frightened on our behalf

How is being frightened for someone else a bad thing?? I get fearful of group members who keep repeating the same patterns, which I mentally predict will lead to same poor outcomes… But it’s their life, and I try to respect their autonomy and agency to repeat their same stupid mistakes again and again… then I get bored of being fearful or disappointed with people, and learn to enjoy the train-wreck; and I’ll laugh at other’s suffering…. in addition to wracking my brain at how I can improve the group and teachings so that it might land better…

Are you also arguing an ideal of total isolation and caring less about other’s feelings?? That’s also a common position in self-help world.. but that’s also NOT what Grannon’s promoting.. I also promote MORE caring… don’t fuck with your natural care circuits, or you’re opening the door to really fucking up your instinctual circuits..
2m44s

This clip also got a bit of pushback in comments, but tons of views… as I think so many people equate gray-rock and no-contact as blanket permission to not care..

Deef

On deeper reflection, I wonder if the issue is around trust. Or more precisely distrust of raw human nature??
It’s masked with utopia on the surface, but if the premise that humans are good and should be taken at face value, then there’d be no need for additional injunctions or expectations placed on oneself, on groups, or onto others…
and are expectations a sort of pre-judgment too?? So is there any way to really escape judgment and still function in the world?

45s

we collectively fear our own nature
so like oh my god we’ve got to stop the people from saying the words or
praying in the wrong language or reading the wrong fucking book!
and if they say no
we’re going to chop their parts off and burn them and they go ….
wow man just calm the FUCK down right
Calm down with this rigid psychotic certainty about Truth!!

And adding on RG excerpt on Inverted Communication, I was supposed to cover this clip during Language Traps pt1 but had change the plan due to Michelle’s disruptions…

Narcissist’s Inverted Communication tactic - Control & Distort the NARRATIVE
2m44s

Setting up injunctions, expectations, or tone policing is a form of inverted communication. Twisting words and beliefs to soften emotional affect, or dull out certain negative emotions… is falling into the dangerous land of inverted communication… or getting too lost in semantics and losing pragmatic and functional aspect of language…

This can help to soften one’s emotional flashback landmines, but it also opens a wide open door for more verbally skillful manipulative and abusive types… to gas light you with shared fantasy, love bombing, paranoia dump, etc. Because once you open the door to prioritizing certain feelings and emotional affect and mood, over reality…. that’s where narcissists and bpd’s reign supreme, they distort reality way faster than any codependent can.

NYE

I’m not sure I’m following all of that. I’m not arguing that humans are fundamentally good and should be taken at face value. I think people are both good and evil. I’m not sure how that affects your assertion that there’s no need for injunctions or expectations.

I’m thinking of expectations as behaviors that I will or will not tolerate. They are the standards by which we judge others. I think I’m missing something.

Deef

This is sorta similar territory where RG’s Inner Circle got messy…. People are taking the teachings too extreme or applying it too bluntly… (or more likely they’re not doing enough emotional literacy work, so they’re digging into boundaries as a magic concept to help them navigate their own emotional flashback landmines.)

NYE expectations as behaviors that I will or will not tolerate

and I’ve tried to explore this boundary setting nuance multiple times and I guess it’s just a very hard pitch…

This is RG describing how his personal life relationships work… he does NOT set boundaries, he doesn’t need to..
2m55s

he tried addressing this nuance in multiple videos in the Inner Circle, and the bad actors didn’t budge…

here’s another attempt

2m11s

The people who can’t control their own feelings try to control the actions of others.

Buddhists, their version of compassion is not cuddly and warm and mergy
Their version of compassion is detached, it’s quite cool and it’s permissive
You want to ruin your life? i like you, you’re you, that’s your right, that’s your life.
What good am i going to do getting myself all stressed out, because i’m of the opinion that you’re doing the wrong thing? I could be wrong.
Why are we trying to push? Why are you trying to push anybody to think or do anything?

You got to ask that question. Why am i trying to control another person’s behavior?
We all should be exerting all of our energy on controlling and integrating and exploring our own perceptions, interpretations, feelings and attachments in the world.
and we should just leave other people alone.

NYE assertion that there’s no need for injunctions or expectations.

The ideal is the less injunctions the better, or ultimately it’s your conscience that takes over the super-ego’s role… so then there’s no more introjects injunctioning you…

Expectations… I wasn’t making an argument for no expectations…. more so a critique of some self-help mantras that pitch no expectations, no disappointment… and that expectations are another way of trying to tweak or distort one’s natural judgment process…. I lean on the side of smart use of judgment and expectations.. and the principle is to have a positive focused expectation (an AIM that’s going towards something)… too many people fall into the trap of a NEVER AGAIN expectation and projection onto the future, and that’s a lose strategy long term, as you spend all your energy trying to get away, and that often leads into circles, as there’s no positive focus AIM to go towards… So one’s instinctive orienting system has no destination to focus on.

Imagine giving your GPS a direction of just getting away from a destination? then add more difficulty and say, keep me away from a moving destination instead of a fixed destination. What kind of journey would that GPS guide you on, if it were able to accept that type of inverted direction?

NYE

I like the Buddhist approach; if you want to mess up your own life go right ahead. But that gets back to the original question, if you want to be believe in a utopian world and think people don’t want to drink your milkshake that’s fine by me. The codependent Grannon is apparently frightened by that prospect.

Perhaps it’s useful to think of boundaries as a crutch that help us get to the Buddhist way of not giving a fuck. I also think of boundaries as more of an internal tool for knowing when your shitty behavior becomes objectionable to me. Ideally, we wouldn’t need boundaries. But for the codependent who is emotionally hemorrhaging starting to understand boundaries is a necessary step toward developing a sense of self independent of the NPD/BPD in our lives.

NYE

Alright, Deef. I’m not sure I understand half of what you wrote. My participation in this group feels counterproductive. Seriously, there may some unresolved inner child issue I’m acting out here; but whatever, it’s time for me to step away. I appreciate the community. I’ve learned a lot. I wish you well.

Deef

The thread continues for public consumption, opinions and feedback… What does the crowd think that happened?? I’ll put my words, behaviors, arguments at the mercy of the public.

Somehow I’m reminded of the first post in the RG thread of which I still think is a classic:

Deef
RG: here’s what codependency is in a nutshell:

it’s a neurotic drive to serve based on a terror of negative emotions.

not choice, not lifestyle, not religious practice, not spiritual practice, We are driven, we have no choice, no freedom.
You’re slaves, I’m a slave, codependency keeps us enslaved, this is codependency ladies and gentlemen.

so you are probably terrified of guilt, so you ramp up the pity for your partner, to avoid the feelings of guilt,

my transcript of full talk @ https://bit.ly/3ejIi5T

and core excerpt from that talk:
1m42s

So…. if codependency is a neurotic drive to serve based on terror of negative emotions.
I’d argue that counterdependency is a neurotic drive to demand based on terror of negative emotions.

Both are similar as life circles around negative emotions… but if behavior patterns is more about demanding from others, instead of people pleasing serving others… then it’s more counter-dependence…

Congrats to harsh boundary setters out there. You’re no longer co-dependent… You can sorta say you’ve healed… because you are no longer serving….

but.. healing from counter-dependence… that’s different territory… not sure if I can help people grow out of that…
Countering others with externalized critic and projections, that works in society.. that gives one feelings having power over others or the world.. that’s a good counter-balance to terror of negative emotions…

Who in their right mind, would give up dominating countering strategies, and willingly allow negative emotions in their world? When they’re so damn good at displacing it externally, disowning and dumping it onto others, or even getting others to act out their negative emotions.. That strategy works… it might a bit isolating, lonely and depressing at times but then you just need to find some new fresh blood to project onto..

ChantalCEM

Deef I’d argue that counterdependency is a neurotic drive to demand based on terror of negative emotions.

I’m trying to grasp Counterdependency - first time hearing this - so question
What’s the difference between counterdependency and core behaviour of clusterB ?
I noticed my Dad (and others) being highly codependent and gradually switching to the same core behaviour of cluster B. Could this be the counterdependency you are referring to?

Thx for pointing out from your objective ability to see reality how I (mind)fuck myself in every possible way to avoid my terror of negative emotions. Thx for keeping your patience and effort to continue to do so.
Because I do need guidance to pierce my denial, see behind my blind spots to stop being shackled to some internalised abuser and childhood strategies.
I assume my reaction is codependent fuelled. That’s were I’m now. And every word is true for me. So I say it anyway.

Deef

ChantalCEM What’s the difference between counterdependency and core behaviour of cluster B ?

I’d probably place cluster B’s as naturally or impulsively counter-dependent… while codependents often try to flip to counter-dependent tendencies, but under high stress they still revert back to codependent serving/slave type behaviors.

Both are dependent (enmeshed with others), with co-dependent style enmeshing through service and people pleasing. While counter-dependent, opposes/fights/pushes/against dependence feelings in self: through perfectionism, demanding from others, numbing; etc. more aggressive strategies.

Pete Walker has an outer critic model which probably meshes well with counter-dependence.

Walker defines the inner and outer critic as follows:
“The inner critic is the part of your mind that views you as flawed and unworthy.
The outer critic is the part that views everyone else as flawed and unworthy.
When the outer critic is running your mind, people appear to be too awful and too dangerous to trust.”
He adds that the outer critic focuses on other people’s imperfections and unworthiness as a way of avoiding having to invest in emotional relationships.

He says that the outer critic develops as a response to parents who “were too dangerous to trust”.
The child learns to be hypervigilant to even the tiniest sign that the parent was becoming imperfect of ‘dangerous’ and as a grown-up believes that everyone else will be a similarly untrustworthy as the parents.
In other words, the outer critic highlights flaws and pushes people away.
It isolates and, even though it’s trying to defend against abandonment, it ends up recreating it.
And so the trauma loop continues.

Common behaviors:

Passive-aggression

Being too honest

Believing everyone is out to hurt them

Fear of vulnerability

A need to control

Lurching between inner and outer critic

Perfectionism

https://theawarenesscentre.com/outer-critic/

Deef

This whole thread was an off-shoot from critiques that my group and format was too cynical in @NYE opinion, and all this back and forth after, including this thread was the group & me seeking evidence, counter-argument or real life alternatives.

I’m guessing he’s left the conversation, which I’d argue that behavior is proof of his cynicism.

But this youtube comment was a nice surprise that offers 3rd party objective evidence that something about our group format is special compared to other groups which might appear with the cover story of safety & comfort but it’s all imposed by administration and is essentially artificial.

And I really appreciate these other people who join the group sessions with you.
It’s like they’re sharing their souls/their truth/their authenticity, and
it really helps me get an idea of what to look for when gauging the sincerity of communication with others.

NO cheap, lazy creativity.