Psychosis Case Study (The Root Issue).

Deef

another example of psychotic case study from YT

Notice the similarities with @FrogLipsHabasi
Absolute confidence, relentless attacks, threats, grandiosity to mania/delusional levels, etc. But he was in a trap because he was triggered by the video and started and stuck with a RG defense, because he related to RG’s denial of BPD diagnoses.

He threatens but then admits he hides in anonymity with no public presence.

The part where he claims to have coined terms and thousand plus others is quite comical.

I finally find a decent pivot and start holding and projecting my own re-frame, instead of just countering him

lol… wtf.. defamation… and felony claims….. that’s actually him admitting that I triggered him… and he relates to the descriptions I summarized about him!! lol…

Continue with more stonewall monologue of my framing, especially now that his over-reaction means I’ve found a trigger or sticking point of his

Then it’s more desperation and non-sense on his side. I think I repeated a few more back and forths, then shadow banned him from the channel…

Deef

Excerpt from schizoid deep dive late afterparty NYE

23s

they don’t give a fuck
if you really were to just stop feeding them and turn them out onto the streets
they would tell you that they were happy with that too
and they would just fucking wither away and die
they don’t give a fuck
how is that adaptive I don’t get it
why do they exist at all
they’re so fucking annoying
they don’t give a fuck cause
they’re so fucking annoying
why do they exist at all

This short sound bite, might both summarize their mindset but also give the answers to them..

They are really good at being annoying, and not giving a fuck, forces the hand of others to give a fuck…

So that’s how their life anxiety plays out…. they annoy the crap out of other people, to get others frustrated and emotionally linked to them.. or to emotionally act out for them…. that’s their way of connecting…

it’s also their way of punishing life… with their life anxiety…. getting others to join them in death obsession… trapping others to hate them because they’re so annoying… that’s the game….

it’s counter-intuitive.. because social norm is death anxiety….. life anxiety just doesn’t compute….

how is that adaptive?

It’s quite adaptive from a life anxiety point of view…. I get other people to care too much… and then I can punish them as a stand in projection for life…. the battle against life can continue forever…

and death obsession isn’t death death as death anxiety people define it…. from life anxiety standpoint… death can be everlasting.. cuz there’s always room for more death… and death can be endless and infinite in it’s own ways….

And having a death posture, means they can jump to new conclusions, beliefs, stances, ideas at any sort of whim, and there’s no need to be consistent… as the prior beliefs are now dead…. it’s like ultimate freedom to change and claim whatever the fuck you want….. but seems totally chaotic, disorganized and fragmented to others….

……..
ohh.. I relisted to this clip again….

and another backdoor is that they probably idealize death and enjoy that as their backdoor of always having an out….

So torture and trapping them in life is the way to get to them….. that’s why they dislike taking positions, or being trapped by categories, definitions, etc….

The fundamental of torture is you need to keep the victim from dissociating or passing out… you have to apply pain in a way that it hurts a bunch but not soo much that the body shuts down….. it’s applying enough pain to short circuit their use of clever scripts.. and get them reactive and desperate… then once those triggers are found, keep up the intensity and heat….. but not so much that they dissociate, shutdown or run away…..

They typically overplay their insult and annoyance card…. cuz they have that death option to disappear or change positions or whatever…. so slowly trap them based on making note of what triggers them or gets them to change behavior… then once they’re somewhat trapped, try to slowly increase the pain and just keep at it…

annoy them back with what’s annoying to them… not what’s annoying to you…. but also ideally use an indifference and apathy shield to block their annoying insults towards you…. that’s still a bit tricky to stay with…

55s

it is the schizoid person who cannot accept rejection and
may enact the internal obsession in the interpersonal domain
without regard for reality

typically the schizoid endeavors to completely repress the hunger for love
as long as the repression is effective
the schizoid relates to the outer object world in a realistic but emotionally shallow manner

if you’re a schizoid you will react with obsession
this obsessive fantasy gradually will impair your reality testing so dramatically
that you will try to force the fantasy on reality
you will try to enact the fantasy
you will try to carry out behaving in the real world as though your fantasy was reality
and this is very dangerous

Isn’t Sam giving a similar description… Schizoid wants to repress their hunger for love… that’s trying to attack life, connection, love, care, giving a fuck….

Then they reject others first, and then try to get others to give a fuck for them… some do it by constantly asking for help and answers from others… saying they’re sincere, but every answer is shot down….

1m21s

the narcissist is convinced that he is the center of malign and mal-intentioned attention
people are conspiring to humiliate him to punish him to restrict him to abscond with his property
to prevent him from realizing his potential and self-actualizing
to delude him to impoverish him to confine him physically
to dwarf him intellectually to censor him to impose on his time to force him to action to force him to inaction to frighten him
to coerce him to surround him to message him to change his mind to part with his values to victimize to murder him and so on

and in all this the narcissist is the center of this universe of collusion conspiracism and inanity
some narcissists withdrawal completely from the world from a universe populated with such menacious and ominous objects

but these objects are really projections of internal objects and processes as you realize
and this narcissists avoid all social contact except the most necessary
they refrain from meeting people, falling in love, having sex, talking to others
or even corresponding with others

in short these narcissists become schizoid

Deef

Some major gems and simplifications by Frank Yeomans, revisiting this clip I made a while back.

Frank Yeomans explains the Paranoid Schizoid Position 2m24s

the paranoid schizoid position
schizoid by the way means split
the mind is split into two segments that don’t connect

aggressive feelings totally detached from loving feelings
the paranoid comes from the fact that people who are not at ease with their own aggressive feelings don’t see those feelings as in themselves but sees them existing in people around them
so the other is aggressive i’m not
that’s where it gets dangerous
if you see others as aggressive and you’re threatened by them
what are you justified in doing attacking
so a lot of aggression in the world is carried out by people who do not see it in themselves and can be vicious in the expression of their aggression
all the while thinking they’re totally innocent of any aggression

i had a borderline patient once who said her husband was the most horrible person in the world
one day i got a call from the husband he left a message
what do i do doc, i forgot my wife’s birthday and she threw the television across the room
so she comes the next session and i said i got a call from your husband
and she said yeah what a horrible person! he forgot my birthday!
so i said well, i understand you threw the television at him
what else could i do? he hurt me!

so this is the paranoid schizoid position
even if you act in a hostile way, the badness is outside

So, someone in psychosis becomes a scary psychopath and has psychotic crazy aggressive destructive behavior. Because they don’t see aggression or badness inside of them. It’s all outside, so it’s fair game to dump total vicious aggression outward at any target that triggers them.

then when this patient began to be aware that she could be aggressive too
it’s a sad realization
but it’s an important step in maturity because that’s the reality of who we are and what the world is

The path to growing up is integrating sad baby, and slowly building up a reality tester, and get away from being lost in psychosis all the time.

part of the paranoid schizoid position is
the belief that you can find somebody in the world who is perfect
who will just give you everything you want
provide for all your needs
that’s what we call the ideal object or the ideal other

it’s a nice thing to believe in
but the world doesn’t offer that

Is this similar territory as favorite person? and also people who project guru status onto RG or other famous figures or celebrities?

so if you advance from the paranoid schizoid position to the depressive one
in addition to acknowledging your own aggression
you realize that the world isn’t going to give you the ideal provider the ideal leader
the person who will solve all your problems

Integrate both sad baby and mad baby…. learn how to handle inner conflicts more consciously, instead of regressing to splitting and dumping too much onto others, but also too much onto yourself.

Onnaloves

Deef someone in psychosis becomes a scary psychopath and has psychotic crazy aggressive destructive behavior. Because they don’t see aggression or badness inside of them. It’s all outside, so it’s fair game to dump total vicious aggression outward at any target that triggers them.

Ohhhh this is Corinne at work!!! OMG! She even said to me she is terrified inside and in permanent attack mode, that everyone is against her. So she feels totally justified in being the attacker, now everyone stays the fuck away from her. Even I lol.

I’ve also noticed the constant nutbags that whine and complain in a passive aggressive manner. They are super annoying because they complain with a smirk like it’s funny, trying to engage everyone into “their misery” to validate their annoyance or grievance and suck others into it.

I see them now. I couldn’t work it out before but this is the perfect description and I’ve been wondering what it is that I am totally repulsed by. I am never convinced they are being real, because the complaints are hyperbole, too ridiculous and exaggerated to make a point, except that it’s so disconnected from reality that people who get sucked in can’t see the bigger picture that there’s a reason for things just being the way they are.

Complainers, whiners, whingers at work make everyone crazy so they don’t feel alone. I look at the people who get sucked in and am just… bleh. It’s gross. Like psycophants. They become immature and gaggly, and cannot see reason at all. Just walk away. These people are bullies in disguise as everyone’s commiserating companion.

Deef

@RedWoodSage

Lovely example of how non-aggressive, vulnerable, emotionally stable, kind, caring, and absolutely not worth stigmatizing; someone who identifies as schizoid personality disorder is.

I don’t see any similarities with the energy and attitude of this email, with FrogLipsHabasi’s psychotic aggression…….

hmm…?

[deleted]

Deef never fear I will balance the abuse with my codependent propensity for sycophancy. You are doing a great job (seriously) and this site is very interesting.

Deef

I’m starting to wonder if Schizoid Angst might have some ASPD (anti-social PD) and NPD… as he has that schizoid dominant frame thinking, but he can’t take a loss, and enjoys beating up on shadow too much, and people in general, to protect his delusions… though the behavior seems to be more about just making other’s wrong.. and to make other’s feel bad..…

3m41s

I don’t care about other people and I’m just here for myself
it’s not entertaining, it’s useful

okay well you got all the use you could out of it
you can leave now, you can leave now

I don’t think that’s the case

oh okay well the moment you get enough use out of it
enjoy the rest of your life I hold no resentment
that’s a very convenient excuse
for it to be perpetually you being selfish and not caring about others
good job
I don’t give a shit why you help me why you do this
what I give a shit is you’re getting something out of it and other people are getting something out of it
and it’s ultimately helping people
even if it’s just you helping yourself
that’s fine by me I don’t give a shit
any kind of like connection even unconventional is like a form of weakness or a form of being entrapped or engulfed by the ever perpetuating machine of the human need for others
weakness the human need for others
weakness or others weakness

it’s a lot easier to deal with when you are confident in your abilities to push out on your own boundaries
because being engulfed by people is not at all an unfamiliar concept to me
in fact there was …
weakness, it’s NOT that

in fact there was, during like the psychosis thing it was other’s emotions become your own
and then the intrusiveness of that is something you realize is your problem
so you stay away from people because they’re dangerous
but it’s your fault that they’re dangerous

it’s usually like other people are dangerous
they need to stay away from them
I’m dangerous to other people

it’s not that I’m dangerous to them
it’s that they’re dangerous to me in a sense that is only my fault and were I to overcome the thing that is making them dangerous and then they would stop being dangerous
which kind of just happened a little bit
am I dangerous?
kind of just happened
everyone is
you’re all people
how dangerous am I when have I been incredibly dangerous

okay I want to know moments in which I’ve been the most dangerous possible

When I interpreted you as being happier than usual
dangerous?
yeah the way that I can’t control my own intrusive adaptive daydreaming and delusional problem
onto other people is what’s dangerous
feeling other people’s emotions that it is engulfing my identity because this doesn’t feel like me

okay I want to know moments in which I’ve been the most dangerous possible
engulfing my identity

which is kind of why I wish things didn’t go south with the one visceral gravitas
cuz when he brought it up it was intensely familiar to me
they don’t have to go south
it’s intensely familiar to me
he made a go south
that’s my point I wish it wouldn’t have
if he’s still around, hey visceral gravitas
if you’re willing to one day show up and say hey man I probably shouldn’t have done what I did
I’d be down to talk again
but if you think what you did was cool and then

or if you don’t care about angst in any capacity and you want to talk to me instead
yeah well talk to Shadow
shadow can tell me I’m best friends with visceral gravitas now
I’d be like whatever dude

trash trash trash
he can play that clip over and over again
Ad nauseam to prove some point

engulfing my identity
he’s intensely familiar to me
dangerous yeah engulfing my identity
yeah like intensely familiar to me
am I dangerous
engulfing my identity

Shadowfall seems to trying to call out Angst but doing it gently and maybe it’s still unconscious… but Angst is still quite active in just trashing him and anyone else who doesn’t fall into his frame….

Shadow might look bad owning his vulnerability and self-defensiveness…. that’s on the surface.. but below the surface, Angst’s behavior is way more selfish, and self serving, at the price of shitting on Shadow and anyone else…. while making baseless claim that he’s altruistic.. fair… and knows more…..

tsk tsk…

ICS

Deef

And here I bump into my limited understanding of English and the topic.
Listening to the two people talking and reading the transcript….

I can’t hear any direct or indirect claim that one of them would be altruistic?

So if anyone feels free to clarify it a bit.

Deef

Deef Schizoid Angst might have some ASPD (anti-social PD) and NPD… as he has that schizoid dominant frame thinking, but he can’t take a loss, and enjoys beating up on shadow too much, and people in general, to protect his delusions… though the behavior seems to be more about just making other’s wrong.. and to make other’s feel bad..…

2m28s

because I don’t want to hurt people
I started thinking about how much unintentional damage
my resentment for the world and my hatred for feeling like some outcast or alien in my environment
how much damage that could have done to somebody that was undergoing their own set of trauma and tribulations under a similar environment as myself
because their version of it didn’t make sense to me I discarded it
I discarded it
and I was so worried about avoiding my own suffering
that I kind of sort of abandoned those kind of ethical duties that I’ve kind of really really felt are now important to me as I’m older

I actually ended up drunk texting my sister apologizing
because I was just so devastated
and I failed in that thing
one of the things that I think helped me cope was I would blame it on, to some degree on my youth
but I couldn’t do that after you said that story

well I couldn’t exactly run from the demon in my head so I didn’t really have a choice

That shit was rough to hear it’s been a brain worm in my head for like a little bit now

I just hated everyone and everything

I did that too I blamed them for as long as I could

but I hated I couldn’t let go and I still can’t let go in many regards for my hatred of the manner in which human society has progressed

I ~~might~~ have hurt a lot of people that I never intended to hurt
with my complete indifference and isolation
porcupine sort of dilemma is they they kind of feel this like weird loneliness and then they reach out and they think they find something and then ultimately that person that can’t give them what they want vice versa
and it just ends up being like more pain for both parties

both parties have a misunderstanding or a miscommunication as to what the other person’s needs are
and how they can be balanced or met

it’s fucking grim

their version of it didn’t make sense to me I discarded it
unintentional damage
I don’t want to hurt people

their version of it didn’t make sense to me I discarded it
I discarded it
I discarded it

This feels just like a more extreme example of Cluster B defenses, when they fall into empty schizoid core space… they dig into intention, and self gaslighting… as ways to overlook their behavior or lack of responsibility. Fixate and obsess about their wounds, and as a by product are totally blind to other’s emotional pain, especially the emotional pain they’re actively inflicting (lack of empathy often under the label of rescuing)..

Angst here is also using clueless baby ignorance shield… keeping the story abstract and fuzzy, to dismiss his part of the interaction. I suspect often it’s mostly his trauma, grief and defenses are contributing to the ‘shared pain’.

Using intellectual baby to keep oneself totally oblivious and ignorant of other people’s perspectives and inner pain… that’s really fucked up…. it’s hard for me to mentalize that level of a defense…. but I’ll still keep trying, because that’s part of my life principles…

Deef

6/10/23 Schizoid TRAPPED in Narrow Self Defined Perceptual Frame!
Fragmenting = BLINDSPOT & Dissociated 40m

I’m considering releasing this publicly on my YT channel, but I think it’s too much exposure and in your face for those true schizoids to consider and digest. Especially with using Angst & Shadowfall as case study examples. These types seem to be really freaked out over being perceived.

I wonder if this was the prior meeting that Frankie attended, and ran off with his tail tucked behind his legs. Then his weird drunken paranoia/panic filled revisit this past Saturday??? Oh, yes it was… and he was saying it was 3 months ago, but it was under half that time. tsk tsk….

Oh, they also have engulfment terror which includes any sort of human to human attachment and connection. So getting some in your face tough love, might also freak them out. Maybe have them run to play video games to help dissociate them and distract them from these scary foreign human feelings like concern, softness, curiosity, bonding, expectations, enjoyment, shared growth, etc. etc..

It’s way more fun to just be a bruiser, and just continue flooding social spaces with reckless abandon, consuming other people’s personal space out of total ignorance.
…..
evidence of their inner fragility:

Schizoid Angst Depressive Side & being Seen & perceiving reality is SCARY terrifying 7m20s

loosely edited raw transcript:

it distracted me but also it gave me something to look forward to every day because life wasn’t providing that
my perception is that it helped me survive because if I didn’t have those things I would have either made some really bad life choices that would have ultimately killed me or done worse
especially in my teenage years in my 20s old fucking Games PS2 PS1 all that shit kept me alive man
kept me sane
kept me probably off of having to go on all kinds of meds that my parents would have probably forced me on
if I would have started acting out
and some people don’t want to be perceived because of aspects of their own self-hatred right
they don’t even want to be seen because they consider aspects of themselves to be some inhuman broken incompatible thing
being perceived is attached to obligations and things that don’t provide reward that make you feel empty every time you accomplish them

it seems like nobody ever perceives me accurately
that’s very frustrating

I’m always all in but I’m not all in for the like you said the interpersonal like the moment I discover it’s an interpersonal thing yeah I would get turned off very quickly
if that’s their intention or goal I get really turned off very quickly because I’ve already had a lot of bad encounters with that in my past
….
because you become associated to aspects of your own Persona that you’re presenting uh and or because of the conflict that comes with your actual self or aspects of your actual self underneath all these masks being seen coming into conflict with the personas who’s created for me it seems like nobody ever receives me accurately that’s very frustrating it also there’s legitimate like people misinterpretations things and yeah it’s one of the that was kind of the main issue I had is I’ll ask questions about especially if it’s an interpersonal matter that I obviously can’t look up on the Internet then I’ll just ask them questions to get more details and they’ll perceive that as me uh trying to like invalidate their position invalidate their position I think mommy is needing the desk it’s not me bobbing my knee on the desk is it it might be sorry um you’re doing something and it’s making like a is it making it okay hold on is it making it now no does it make you know when I do this yes son of a bitch it is my legs but I’m not even touching the desk I was gonna say that’s that’s been a recurring thing for quite a few streams now ah God damn it this is why I have this stupid fidget toys and shit because they’re supposed to keep me from bombing my leg because bombing my leg is the only thing that’s like Disturbed disturbs the stream um fucking ADHD bullshit let me try this hold on before I continue because this is I need to bomb my fucking leg God damn it I’m always all in but I’m not all in for the like you said the interpersonal like the moment I discover it’s an interpersonal thing yeah I would get turned off very quickly uh if that’s their intention or goal I get really turned off very quickly uh because I’ve already had a lot of bad encounters with that in my past I would say in my 20s I couldn’t detect that and so because of that I would continue down the path of conversation and interaction with the goal the sole goal of having somebody to talk about this topic with and this interest with and they obviously weren’t looking for that right and that ultimately hurts them them and and it it bothers me and that’s definitely not my goal uh re-energizing of yourself socially or whatever the fuck you want to call it because you get to talk and be yourself so that way you can re-energize yourself for all the times that where you can’t because that’s kind of what I get out of this sometimes too uh which is like oh I can just be me cool that’s kind of nice and then when you’re in situations in which that is not the option because of responsibilities or a sense of obligation or sense of Duty or whatever you want to call it it makes it that much easier not how I’m going to perceive the project but how my emotions are going to handle my lack of disassociation with aspects of it so I used to be able to approach this project in a more kind of dispassionate way I saw this problem and I was frustrated and I want a solution right and I still feel like that about it like most of the time now that I’m actually like I guess getting more in tune with the whole like aspects of myself and the more emotional Reasons I’m doing this at all it fucking sucks it’s it’s really fucking painful but at the same time it’s making me more dedicated to it I also feel more like like it’s a more concentrated like hit on that sort of meta pain that I feel about stuff because it’s like fuck now I’m like it’s like it’s like being there for instead of watching it on the news I’m starting to feel shit and it’s it’s tough now then I’m managing the highs can be very high ER than that I’ve ever experienced but the lows can be so much lower now and that’s the part that sucks the lows are extremely low for me right now I don’t want to deal with like suicidal ideation I don’t want to deal with that I got way too much on my plate and stuff I care about to deal with shit like that I got this I got a fan it doesn’t kill you right eggs yeah right but like I got way too much stuff on my plate to spiral into places like that like that’s just not that’s not where I need to be but like I’ll I’ll be honest I’ll be honest this uh this project is like as much as it’s brought some really good shit to me like it’s it’s made other things very very difficult because now I’m seeing the world and I’m seeing issues and problems connected to my efforts and I just feel hopeless and just futile and impotent it’s when uh the kind of depression kicks in and I’m just like it makes me just want to give up on everything that was an interesting uh conversation now I’m feeling uncomfortable with being perceived right now because this is very vulnerable uh is it because you’re perceiving yourself maybe I think I’m less comfortable with perceiving myself than I am with others perceiving me because with others perceiving me I can just ignore it and not care especially when it runs uh in conflict with their comfort or adaptations that kept them safe they start feeling like like even even parts of the self start feeling like intrusive thoughts against the backdrop of the adaptations that make you feel like you’re you’re safe it’s almost like your parts of you are coming out and going hey hey I’m here and you’re like no no no no you don’t you’re you’re not a thing shut up go away it’s a more concentrated hit meta pain that I feel about stuff because it’s like fuck now I’m like it’s like being there for instead of watching it on the news

I think I’m less comfortable perceiving myself than I am with others perceiving me
because with others perceiving me I can just ignore it and not care
I’m feeling uncomfortable with being perceived right now because this is very vulnerable
it’s very vulnerable it’s very vulnerable
it’s like being there for
instead of watching it on the news

Deef

Deef I think I’m less comfortable perceiving myself than I am with others perceiving me
because with others perceiving me I can just ignore it and not care
I’m feeling uncomfortable with being perceived right now because this is very vulnerable
it’s very vulnerable it’s very vulnerable
it’s like being there for
instead of watching it on the news

Maybe, here’s an example of what that looks like

1m12s

it’s extremely triggering
it’s because Deef is extremely good at what he does
so Deef would hit raw nerves
like I took a screenshot of the last time I was on here
and he pretty much explained who I was and I found that triggering
what was that, what was that?
I don’t know, I’ve never looked at the screenshot
so you don’t remember what he said?
I remember just thinking, I remember just thinking
I don’t want to be here
(laughter)
But what did he say, you don’t know what he said?

I don’t, but I remember reading it and it was extremely painful
but real but true true
oh yeah accurate as FUCK
yeah like but I felt overexposed I felt extremely vulnerable
so I’ve been avoiding you guys
because I’m in the trench at the moment
I’m probably, on my like, I’m on the bones of my ass
not like that I mean I got a bit of money and I’ve got somewhere to stay
but it’s a nightmare

ICS

Deef

The comment on the “finger thing”…where Deef says that it is like he is acting like a child….

It is true that it looks strange…
At the same time a know that our fingers may give us the opportunity to help us relax and stay tuned in stead of fading out when we are in a situation where we think that we might expect messages or behaviors that triggers us.

I learned that to clasp the thumb of one hand with the other hand can give you comfort. A fysiotherapist I attended who
had some knowledge about meridians and TCM told me that holding your thumb is pretty much the same as why babies who suck on their thumb. It calms the nervous system. If at the same time you raise your tongue towards the palate right like a half cm behind your upper teeth it gives pretty much the same comfort….to remain present.
To clasp the index finger has also sooth as well.
Thumb is connected to lung meridian and index finger to large intestine meridian. So far what the physiotherapist taught me.

So at least this person has found a way with his bizarre toy to stay somehow present.

That said, the toy reminds me of a the chinese finger trap.
I was given one by a psychotherapist who really helped me. Not in the sense of learning to name emotions.
But he gave at least the “start” to learn to feel and not to run from emotions or feelings or pain.
He gave me the chinese finger trap as principle. If you want to get out….you will have to learn to sink in the feeling or the pain a little deeper…go closer to it…and only then it will get less tight by itself.
But that it would take time to learn it and that I don’t had to force myself.

For as far as I can see this principle is also what is encouraged in this community.

Deef

ICS Listening to the two people talking and reading the transcript….
I can’t hear any direct or indirect claim that one of them would be altruistic?

Uhm…. that might be pretty accurate, people who tend towards schizoid and psychosis, tend towards hating humanity, rejecting social norms, dismissing connection, so that would lead towards placing low value on altruism…

Though they might virtue signal altruism, and make claims of wanting to help others, or not harm others. But generally that sort of stuff isn’t on the table, when one is flooded with paranoia, dark despair, and hating their humanity & humanity in general.

ICS

Deef feeling uncomfortable with being perceive

Is being perceived in this context in a way of being observed by someone else?

And is feeling uncomfortable with being perceived often connected with a schizoid state?

There are situation where I feel uncomfortable with being observed.
I had this a few months ago. At work. A co worker observing me… and it made me nervous.
But I have it only with this specific person. If other co workers are observing me carry out exact the same tasks…I am feeling just fine.
This co-worker is very nervous himself. He has some kind of restless leg…moving it up and down…
So when he comes standing next to me and observes what I am doing…Soon I feel very nervous too.

And I do feel more at ease when he is not around or is it rather near.

And now I am thinking out loud….

Does this person triggers unresolved issues?
Is it something to explore?

Or is it just okay to stick with it that I am just not comfortable with this person?
As it isn’t realistic at all to believe that one day I would be capable of feeling just okay whomever is around…

Or do I have to explore what is annoying to him…trigger it…so that he leaves?

I will have to let it simmer for a while.

(P.s. For some reason at the first encounter…no word was even spoken..I got a flash of a scene in a movie called “the invasion of the body snatchers”…a movie that I saw in my teens.)

ICS

Deef

Thanks deef.
So you mean that they try to sound as if they are altruistic by adding the words “helping people” into their conversation.
Like in this part?

I don’t give a shit why you help me why you do this

what I give a shit is you’re getting something out of it and other people are getting something out of it
and it’s ultimately helping people
even if it’s just you helping yourself
that’s fine by me I don’t give a shit

How would that work? When the majority of the words that are used are about making clear “not give a shit” about other people or human connection.
Do they really expect that viewers or listeners would only pick up the words “helping people” and ignore the rest of what they are signaling?

Deef

ICS Do they really expect that viewers or listeners would only pick up the words “helping people” and ignore the rest of what they are signaling?

Yes, it seems that way. But it also might be to just convince themselves that they aren’t totally horrible people; and also neurotic people don’t want to see them as totally selfish; so a western social norm is to pretend that everyone is driven by guilt and desires to be a helpful good altruistic person…

ICS And is feeling uncomfortable with being perceived often connected with a schizoid state?

It’s probably degrees of being perceived… it seems that schizoids might have tons more discomfort with self-perception than other types of people..

ICS So when he comes standing next to me and observes what I am doing…Soon I feel very nervous too.

Paranoia, anxiety, and nervousness can be contagious…. and if he can contagion you, and then observe it in you along with criticizing and judging you for it… he could get you to own and act out his nervous energy, and help him emotionally process and regulate his own stuff…

ICS

Deef

Deef so a western social norm is to pretend that everyone is driven by guilt and desires to be a helpful good altruistic person…

This has to sink in.

I know that where I live many people were raised with a large influence of the Catholic church.

Many went to Catholic schools, went to church and had to learn prayers by heart. And I have no Idea how many times they have spoken the words of their prayers out loud and how many times they have heard them vowed by others.
One of the prayers contain these words “By my fault, by my fault, by my great fault”
Many heard them from the day they were born, till the day they die.
So maybe it isn’t just pretending that everyone is driven by guilt…maybe large parts of the population were indoctrinated that thoroughly that they are actually driven by some “learned” guilt that was forced upon them from a very young age.

If one grows up with the idea that everything is always your fault, and that you have to strive to be a good altruistic person to go to heaven one day. I guess that this can only lead to selfishness….as within this mindset there is no room for being a human being living on earth. One would get engaged in behavior to secure a heavenly “afterlife”…..and this behavior would be controlled by the Church…as they are the ones who are dictating what has to be done to be forgiven by god.

The youngest generations are not under influence of that church anymore. But this doesn’t mean that young parents raise their children completely different that how they were raised themselves.
The guilt tripping is still very alive.

Deef and if he can contagion you, and then observe it in you along with criticizing and judging you for it… he could get you to own and act out his nervous energy, and help him emotionally process and regulate his own stuff…

Pfffffffffffff…
Okay so there is the contagion…So far he didn’t judge or criticize me…So I guess that he doesn’t observe it in me at all…
Probably the result of years of training of not showing my emotions…or repressing them….when not safe to do so…
But that strategy takes to much energy or rather…it blocks or disturbs my own energy flow.

On one hand I would say it would be better if I learned to keep other peoples energy out of my system.
But since the 1.5 meter distancing rule of the pandemic times doesn’t exist any longer that is quiet impossible. This is really interesting. As I am still working trough trough what Karla teaches…in baby steps…
I guess he dares to come stand unnecessary close because I don’t channel my anger properly…She says something like your anger should be at your boundary.
The “onwing your capacity to do evil”…thing huh?

When it comes to anxiety…I know how to channel my own. As for me it works precisely how Karla describes me. My own anxious energy helps me to prioritize and complete tasks.
But if it is true that another persons anxious energy can be contagious…I don’t see how I could help him to act out his energy….His energy is there for him right?
If I would own it and act it out…it would make me a thief of his energy.
I ’ll have to learn to tap into in my own source to get enough anger present in my system…so that I don’t need his energy for it…
Typing it here…
It seems that he is helping me…to show me when and where my boundary is blurry and that i am not in touch with anger….although it may not be a conscious intention on his part.

Deef

ICS If one grows up with the idea that everything is always your fault, and that you have to strive to be a good altruistic person to go to heaven one day. I guess that this can only lead to selfishness….as within this mindset there is no room for being a human being living on earth. One would get engaged in behavior to secure a heavenly “afterlife”…..and this behavior would be controlled by the Church…as they are the ones who are dictating what has to be done to be forgiven by god.

The guilt tripping is still very alive.

These going to heaven metaphors aren’t used as much, but I’d argue people are acting it out even more, because there’s less formal church influence. Instead science, policy and group social norms are a free for all, on who can play church, or speak for God.. and enforce moral norms…. Fighting from a moral high ground position, allows manipulators to assign blame to others, and guilt trip people relentlessly….

ohh… I suppose the lack of clear moral leadership by role models and strong disciplined examples…. has created a vacuum that allows anyone and everyone to play moral enforcers these days….. somehow personal character, standards and behaviors are divorced from playing enforcement role.. In a society where it’s felt that it’s teetering on the edges of spiritual bankruptcy…. that might open the doors for excessive policing of each other.

But if it is true that another persons anxious energy can be contagious…
I don’t see how I could help him to act out his energy….His energy is there for him right?
If I would own it and act it out…it would make me a thief of his energy.
…
Typing it here… It seems that he is helping me…to show me when and where my boundary is blurry and that i am not in touch with anger….although it may not be a conscious intention on his part

We might be hardwired for anxiety contagion…. if someone else around you is detecting threat, it’s quite adaptive for you to notice this and join in…. This is also another loophole for manipulation, more precisely paranoid transference where someone can flood others with their paranoia, panic, anxiety… and that prioritizes their story or delusion to overwrite other’s personal judgment…

Anger would help you notice the fuzzy boundary territory… though if someone is really good at flooding anxiety & paranoia… in a full-on emotional intensity battle.. anxiety would win…. so I’d add working with anxiety along with anger as a better strategy…

A shortcut pointer for anxiety I like is: education & exposure
But it’s a balance of education & exposure, too much of either, also leads to anxiety…

So if someone is flooding too much anxiety from excess maps, knowledge, etc…. then the counter is to increase exposure, immersion, experience…

vice versa.. if someone is flooded by too much exposure…. they’re anxious because the world is too chaotic, confusing, complex…. then helping them make sense of their situation, surroundings, problems, etc.. would ease anxiety…. or you could also throw in some anger, and label the problems, and state boundaries, that it’s their problem and not yours….
clarifying their anxiety to them and yourself….
and you could also just do it internally…. and that can lower the anxiety contagion…

ICS

Deef We might be hardwired for anxiety contagion…. if someone else around you is detecting threat, it’s quite adaptive for you to notice this and join in…. This is also another loophole for manipulation, more precisely paranoid transference where someone can flood others with their paranoia, panic, anxiety… and that prioritizes their story or delusion to overwrite other’s personal judgment…

Yes i think that this is the case.
I don’t get it completely cause the co worker isn’t in a situation where there is a real threat. At least I can’t see it right now why he feels a threat…seemingly continuous.
This could of course mean that he is indeed in some paranoid state and not simply anxious…

As I am rather new in this job i don’t have a history with him.
And when I start in a new workplace, I tend to be rather quiet and listen a lot. And so I hear a lot. And I see a lot. But I miss a lot too.
So maybe that is what feels as threatening to him.
He has history with other co workers, that much is clear to me. Other co workers tend to gossip…
But I guess he has no idea what people are telling about him…
He on the other hand he does not gossip about the past…
But he tells his opinion about co workers in a total different way.
He clearly shows despise when talking about more than a few co workers…where they don’t take their responsibility…or don’t carry out all the tasks that were assigned to them quick enough or even not at all.

Something tells me that his expectations are not very realistic, considering how much work there is and how many people that are available to do the work.

So people tend to prioritize on individual insights or preferences and set boundaries…and each of them in their own specific manner.

So I guess that when doesn’t agree with how others decide to prioritize and set boundaries he tends to find some way to take revenge as he is part of the team that makes the work schedules. Once he knows what someone’s preference is, he makes sure that this person will not get those working hours, or reduce certain tasks to minimum as possible…if he holds grudges towards that person.

Even so it might be true that sometimes some co workers don’t take their responsibility in certain matters…their are probably better ways to address that than the schedule punishments.
As it is even more counterproductive…to get more work done.

For now I try to keep a distance to “their past”. My grandfather used to say "when you see other people opening up their cesspool…don’t stir it….it won’t help you to make the smell go away. Just get used to it…..

ICS

Deef

Thanks for your insights here.
Once again this will take time for me to process…it is quiet huge I have to admit.
So probably later on some more questions might arise.

ICS

Deef but I’d argue people are acting it out even more, because there’s less formal church influence. Instead science, policy and group social norms are a free for all, on who can play church, or speak for God.. and enforce moral norms…. Fighting from a moral high ground position, allows manipulators to assign blame to others, and guilt trip people relentlessly….

Yes I see what you mean.
And there is a lot of truth to that.
Across the border from where I live there is part of the Netherlands called “the bible belt”.
In that area people do still go to church. But it isn’t the Catholic wing.
The attitude of people there is different from where I live and the atmosphere is different in their towns and villages.
Probably because on individual level they know for sure that no single one of them is God.

So yes if that awareness disappears that no single human is god, from the moment that people don’t attend church anymore or any communal spiritual practice, it indeed can lead to many individuals to act as if each of them is god…

So a part of the western society has won the race from the Ancient Greek and Roman culture and even Hindu culture…
They have many more gods ….hoeza…
So in less than 3 generations they moved from one God to millions of gods……

Maybe there are role models to be found, but maybe those role models don’t seem to want to take the role on a large platform, main stage, high position?

ICS

Deef Anger would help you notice the fuzzy boundary territory… though if someone is really good at flooding anxiety & paranoia… in a full-on emotional intensity battle.. anxiety would win…. so I’d add working with anxiety along with anger as a better strategy…

A shortcut pointer for anxiety I like is: education & exposure

I watched one of the zoom meetings where you speak about skillful anxiety/double binds/ acetylcholine and more.

Still processing grieve and sadness….it comes in waves.
Somehow something tells me that it is the load of unprocessed grieve that makes it difficult to be near or close to very anxious people.
And yet the exposure is very needed…It feels like their presence is like fire to something that is frozen. The fire melts it down…it hurts…..at first you feel the burning heat….as it takes a while before the ice changes into water…but once enough ice has melted… water for the tears is available again to cry and let it flow again…

Karla categorizes grieve in the sadness family of emotions.
Sadness is a big part of it indeed. Somehow for me it seems that all emotions are involved in the process.
As if there is some cycle ….looks like disregulation…..to someone who observers it from the outside…but it might be simply “reregulation” and integrating a new reality after minor and major losses.
The emotions are part of the “update” process.

How many times do we have to install updates for computer/laptop/smartphone? What does happen if you don’t install the updates? How often do we need to reboot the system after an update? When it comes to AI we do it right?

But if it comes to myself I would believe that there is something wrong with me if I would make updates to my “coeurnel” ? huh?

« Previous Page