Newbie random comments space

Fryek

Welcome Newbie (sorry for not proving a proper welcome).

Look… life isn’t safe… we don’t get out alive. But this is a controlled space that is about as safe as it gets in the real world. There are other false spaces where people tiptoe around and tell you lies so that no one gets “hurt” but that’s bullshit. Healing hurts. You’ll have to expose yourself, talk things out, maybe get offended, maybe offend… but if you only look for those “safe spaces”… you won’t really get a chance to heal.

As Deef says… “embrace the suck”. It’s the only way to move on, to learn, to approach healing, to find the clues.

Good luck.

Newbie

Thank you. I know I sound contrary maybe to say this but I’m really not even trying to find a “safe space” exactly. I know that’s not real life. I just don’t want to make some of the mistakes I have made before. I didn’t really consider myself an offensive person exactly. Or it wasn’t my intention to just be offensive or upset or hurt anyone. I’m afraid I might be far more socially inept than I realized maybe. I know there are no perfect people. Everyone gets hurt and everyone can hurt other people even if it’s unintentional. I never expect perfection from anyone no matter who they are or what the circumstances. I’ve tried to be down to earth and realistic about people. Mostly I feel like I have been, or I’ve genuinely tried, and of course I’m not an exception to being a flawed human. I just want to be more aware of myself I guess. I have the social grace of a bull in a china shop sometimes.

Deef

Newbie I just want to be more aware of myself I guess.
I have the social grace of a bull in a china shop sometimes.

Quite a confusing newbie that speaks in code… guessing that he/she is mindblind to autistic type of levels…
and likely too much self-centeredness…. along with total cluelessness of what the fuck is happening with other people and general society….

He/She likely needs to the do the opposite of all the injunctions and self-gaslighting going on…. needs to learn about others and also how he/she comes across to others… but people on the ASD spectrum are fucking annoying to work with, their blindspot can be huge…

Bradford As you show in the youtube comments, she jumps in, rescues and gaslights and it’s getting more intense and is often in direct opposition to you

I dunno, Holly has been pretty consistent with her blindpsot and styles of interjections…. though there is a slight intensity uptick recently.. but yah I think that she’s a bit nervous at not being able to keep up or follow what’s happening…

I think 2 meetings ago, she was arguing about RG’s video where he was talking about shared fantasy, but she heard him advocating self-fantasy?? and I countered in the meeting with half memory of his talk… later on Holly messaged me with time stamp and quote.. and then I looked it up after, and he spent most of his time on shared fantasy.. no where is he openly advocating self-fantasy….

of which that’s sort of Holly’s problem.. she hides in her own fantasy as a security blanket or safety place… but the price of self-fantasy… is delusion or psychosis…
then if she’s constantly hanging out in narcissist abuse meetup groups… it’s just this constant exposure to gaslighting, dissociation and delusions disconnected from reality….

But… maybe I’m getting a little closer to her core wound.. and now just gotta figure out how to precisely poke it to guide her.. or to get her to do an ugly break down….
…..
OH…. maybe it’s as simple as Holly’s main trigger…

when others are dating.. or having interactions with the other sex.. she gets triggered… from envy.. jealousy… or what not…

but it’s her own fucking fault.. her morals supposedly keep her from having male friends… BUT I think it’s more her lack of social skills to interact w/ masculine energy…

Onnaloves

Newbie haven’t replied funnily enough going through my own version of PTSD which I thought had actually gone after three years of fighting for recovery.
I wish I could offer some hope or something that you will eventually feel safe again. However, I am still on the mend after thinking I did it! Although progress is progress, it’s non-linear and I definitely didn’t think I’d still be learning to heal 3 years later. Thinking back though, I’ve learned to realize there was nothing I could have done to change the outcome - as I did not know any better at the time. I have never been addicted to emotions as much as what caused this endless cold turkey.
But learning what it is, has helped me identify what to do next. Welcome to starting your new strategy and research here.

Newbie

Onnaloves

Onnaloves thank you! You sound like me. I really thought I “got it” at least enough to never feel like this. I was very mistaken. I really appreciate it. I know everything will be ok and I won’t always feel this way. I just never want to let this happen again going forward. Thank you all, so much. I know there are good people in the world. Right now I just don’t want to test my judgment on that.

Newbie

I know you guys said this is “safe” here. But I’m mortified…(Yes that’s an exaggeration I guess probably) I’m ok now really, so I don’t mean to sound all dramatic. It’s just every group is ‘supposed’ to be good, they say they’re purpose is for good, to educate people etc. I normally feel like I can catch on and keep up to understand things better. Right now I just can’t help but still feel So confused. So it makes me anxious to trust MY own judgment. And this may make me sound completely irrational or paranoid (maybe I am at this point I don’t know) but a part of me feels like I should be waiting for something horrible to happen. Like someone is going to tell me this really isn’t safe at all. That I’m going to be punished for being stupid, or annoying, or some terrible sin I’ve committed that means I must be some evil person and this is just me getting what I deserve. (I swear I’m not as insane as I know I sound) I wish I could be more specific so I don’t just sound so crazy but I just can’t. Can anyone at all just tell me if you understand this feeling? Did anyone else feel nervous to speak here at first?? And if you did, how long did it take before you knew it was really ok??
I am sorry for being ridiculous. I am trying so hard to not feel this way anymore I swear.
Anyway I appreciate any advice. Thank you guys!

Onnaloves

Newbie meh, I’ve been through this but on the Zoom meetups that’s how I first started. The feeling you describe is something that used to get me all the time, that I was going to say something wrong that would “out me” as being a nasty evil person. And that people would see through me and dislike me before I had a chance. That whole 1st impression counts was part of my ongoing emotional abuse that brought me here.
My boss was always rubbing in what people would think of me if I dressed this way or “thought” that way, to the point I dreaded what to do, say, or behave on every business trip. My confidence was so severely eroded that even my LinkedIn became a source of “what will I post that outs me as a fake” “I am only acting like I know shit, when I don’t know anything” “I have a degree but I’m clueless” “I am an engineer but no one believes me so I must use the letters after my name so that people KNOW I’m qualified” when no one gives a shit anyway.
You’ll be fine. You’re just having the same PTSD I did.

Deef

Newbie I know you guys said this is “safe” here

The word safe tends to grate at my nerves…. The ideal for my groups is that they’re real, open and try to be fair…. if you want to use safe I’ll budge with safe enough… as my reframe.

A sense of safety comes from your instincts, not from an external guarantee.

Reading through your posts, and feeling the vibe off of them. I’m guessing that your issue might be opposite what you’re thinking. It’s that you’re too self-centered, which ends up being counter productive, as you’re transmitting your anxiety and other related emotions onto others. Which ends up contributing to harsh behaviors and social sanctions by others. Your challenges with reading the room and others, is sending non-verbal signals of distrust to other people.

This is a visual I’ve used in past meetings, that describes what I’m sensing… (purely a guess)

I suppose the way out of excess self-centered looping is to take action and get into a process or flow outside of yourself. Beyond yourself, greater than yourself, not related to yourself. Give yourself a break from yourself.

Also there are social skills to blend in, and become invisible to others. That’s a primary strategy of mine when interacting in new social environments. Learn the new environment first, adjust to it, and then start sharing some of my differences, and see how it lands. Then adjust and adapt accordingly.

Newbie

Onnaloves Thank you. And yes So much to that. I’ve experienced trauma and “got through” things in time and work. This just felt like, something else…I don’t even have the words.
The thing is, I know I’m Not evil. I can be blunt for sure and I’m not scared to speak my mind. Even with that though, I don’t think I am even a “mean” person, at least by most standards (or I really thought so)
I have my moments of course. I’m not an angel. It’s just with this, I genuinely don’t know what I did that would cause someone to hate me. So it made me think, I need to rerun everything in my mind to understand this or figure out what I did so I never do it again.
((As far as the LinkedIn thing)) I literally deleted my work profiles because I read something, basically talking about how narcissists think they are smarter or more qualified etc than they actually are. (And I am no engineer over here even so talk about feeling clueless) lol (I understand that feeling is what I am trying to say) “Imposter syndrome” I think is what it basically is if I understand it right. And it SUCKS lol But also, it’s a lie we believe. Of course a surgeon needs to be qualified to do what they do and any other job, career etc to a point. But some things we learn best by experiences in life, I think. (if I’m wrong or anyone disagrees feel free to correct me, I don’t get offended by that at all)
I just think some things, we can study our whole lives and get all the letters or titles to attach to our name, but unless we have experienced certain things, we can never possibly understand the way someone else might who has had hands on experience.
Anyway when I read that (and don’t judge the way my brain works, too harshly please) lol but in my mind I almost was like…ok wait. Maybe someone thinks I am a bad person or a narcissist or whatever else and that’s why this was happening.
(Please don’t judge me) I went as far as trying to consider that maybe I actually am just a bad person and I must be in denial lol
But as crazy as I felt, I know that’s irrational because I don’t even Want to be mean 😭 (face palm, I know) lol smh
If it makes anyone feel less alone, I actually reached a point this year where I felt so desperate and hopeless that I considered just trying to “brainwash” Myself so that I could just not care about anything anymore (and yes I know how absolutely ridiculous that sounds)
Anyway, I just want to get past all of it and get on with life and be happy. So I’m working on that now and trying to focus on things I can do to get there. (I just left a therapy appointment) (I’m sharing) haha
I know it’s never an overnight thing. BUT I don’t feel hopeless anymore and that feels like a major accomplishment, so I’m thankful for that.

Onnaloves

Deef and this is where I totally lack! Spot on. Too self centered (although I never realized it at the time).
Now I feel different though, I feel I don’t have needs anymore, so I give less fucks, I don’t stalk anyone anymore, and I really don’t give fucks anymore. This whole blending in - never been good at it, not even gonna try. I’m eccentric in some ways and that gives me a pass because I have produced something that is not just for me, but to share with others. So I can forgive myself and give myself a little room for being the weirdo 😌

Newbie

Deef I 100% do not disagree that my ability to read the room was Very very off. I didn’t feel like I needed to hide myself though. I think I was the opposite and too opened?? Because I know everyone says to be yourself and be authentic, but I was…now I’m like, shit no. Maybe I was too casual I guess?? I want to understand so badly. I don’t want to upset anyone or make anyone feel sad or anxious or anything else at all.

Newbie

Deef and I didn’t mean to make it sound like there is a reason for me to not trust anyone here. I just meant I am normally trusting by default and I thought maybe that’s something I need to work on.

Newbie

Onnaloves I don’t think you seem weird. I genuinely don’t know anymore if other people think I am not not 😐😭😂 my perception is so fucked right now still I think in some ways smh I’m trying though. You said fucked so I hope I’m not wrong to assume that it doesn’t offend anyone if I say it haha

Onnaloves

Newbie ok this is weird - this notification came in from the 28th Oct. don’t understand why I can only now just see these two posts.
My response is to the label „bad“
I don‘t think I’m a bad person, but I do fuck up in ways that have bad consequences and collateral fallout. So I like to use the word bad sparingly. Good isn’t bad or good, it’s just food. Sugar is not bad, healthy is not good. I resent those terms actually.
When I first learned the terms narcissist all I could think about was how many „bad eggs“ I’d fallen in with, and it took me a while to realize, actually no they aren’t bad people. They just survive at whatever means make them happy and I happen to let that happen. My bad, doesn’t make them bad. I made stupid mistakes. Yes I’m finally living to see some karma and see their luck reverse and it’s great.
But I believe even a narcissist is just a hopeless individual that places his „survival“ in other peoples responsibilities without asking. That’s just being a mug for a thoughtless brat, but the brat isn’t bad unless by intent - he disrespected you.
I acknowledge I have treated people with disrespect when deserved, and even then that was probably not the best way to deal with problems only to confound them.
I‘m learning a bit more these days how to hold a space for respect, but with a clear understanding of not costing myself for giving others respect.
It costs nothing to give respect, but if it is costing me something - then I think about that „transaction“. I gave a guy three chances this week before I fired him. I was polite with him but he cost me a week and lost my respect and trust.
Doesn’t make me a bitch or a bad person. Maybe I did enjoy him wincing and crying a bit.

Onnaloves

Newbie you know what’s really funny? I had to learn not to vomit my excess on everyone and “hold back” to not offend anyone. People glaze over with shock or discomfort and I don’t notice until it’s too late. But I see it now.
This forum, the meetups which I plan to return to, has been “safe enough” exposure practice for me to re-watch mine and others reactions around me. I was disgusted at myself to be honest. I decided to step back and work more on my passion instead of gassing about it and leaving a stink in the room.
Now I’ve achieved something for myself, I feel no need to harp on about myself and troubles anymore. Although I do so here, I’ve been away a lot lately and focused on developing my own business.
No one needs to know about me anymore and I don’t crave to share it. I don’t need to shout about all the shit I’ve been through, and it can stay in its place now because I’ve come to terms with it.
Instead, I’m learning how to “notice” other people and their difficulties. And instead forgive them for those difficulties because they come from flaws that we all carry.
I am no longer afraid of Narcissists because I feel I’m at a level with them 🤣. I will fully admit I know what my Narcissistic traits are, and how those traits actually help me. People have the potential to be abusers, and I will not be one of them. Just knowing people have the potential, is a great relief.
I just don’t let anyone get away with anything now.
I think you’ll be fine after some time and exploration with your own strategy. I’m glad you have access to a therapist, I didn’t, but then again therapists have seriously dissappointed me. LOL

Deef

Newbie Because I know everyone says to be yourself and be authentic, but I was…now I’m like, shit no

Don’t fall for that worthless pointer, it’s a lie…

The unspoken injunction is keep your damn trauma to yourself.
1m07s

When you’re faced with raw emotion, at that level, it’s quite frightening and it doesn’t feel very nice, and it’s also contagious.
And they don’t want it, so it’s a kind of a shunning
They go ughh eww! I don’t want to do it! ehhwwrr, no thank you, no thank you.
…
I just don’t want to deal with this, that you’re presenting me with, and quite frankly i don’t know how to.
so

You’re disturbing me!

You’re making me feel incompetent!

FUCK YOU!

This is the unspoken rule in neurotypical society. Do not dump your emotions to the level that others feel incompetent or insecure… Otherwise you will face social sanctions, judgment or exile.

Newbie I wasn’t trying to be self centered

Again, the pattern of self-centered, excessive I statements continues for your every post. You don’t have to be trying to, I think it might be a normal pattern of how you process information. But it also might distract you from what’s going on within others or within the group.

You’re probably too ego-centric and maybe need a bit more allo-centric perspective.

Over explaining yourself while you’re missing tons of cues from others spoken words and unspoken cues, along with group cues. Just raises the emotional contagion and dumping of anxiety.

Newbie

Onnaloves I’m late to ask, but when you felt like that, with your therapist I mean. What did you do? I mean we go to a therapist when we don’t know what to do. So I what do you do if you’re not even sure if you should talk to a therapist anymore?
I just ask because I don’t want to go to someone if I’m not even paying them and spill my guts so they can help me understand. Because I don’t want anyone to feel like I’m being a pain or trying to take advantage of them or anything like that at all. I know I have to get back to doing some things myself at home.
But did it ever make you sad at all to feel that way?? You don’t have to answer that. I was just wondering. Anyway, I’m just going to get back to these self help courses and get my brain together 😪

Newbie

I wasn’t trying to be self centered or make anyone uncomfortable at all. I’m sorry. I will try not to word vomit on here. I know I am too casual when I talk. I have to stop doing that 😣

Newbie

Deef You’re right about the over explaining and the “I” statements. After I started to do it I’m like ew no stop it! 😣
I don’t know if I had ever seen that clip before… Or somehow I seriously missed that message. I’ve joked with close friends that I don’t “dump too much on my therapist because we vent to our friends” (the point of it basically) I was mostly joking really and they know that because they come to me too.
But seeing/hearing that. Ouch.
It’s not that I don’t understand how taxing that must get as a profession. But I when I ended up back in my therapists office it was not until the point of desperation. So I could sleep at night. I’ve been careful not to do the dump-thing on my therapist, thank God! I just need to be careful in other places about being too open.

Newbie

Deef you know it’s crazy maybe, but when I am in person I’m hyper aware of other people. Even if they aren’t speaking, body language, facial expressions etc. But mostly it’s been a good thing to understand people/situations etc that could go very wrong if I didn’t. Is that something you see much working with people online? I mean having no problems being social etc in person but then online just…not. This is why people say social media can be dangerous and I didn’t listen until I had to learn the hard way.

Deef

Newbie I mean having no problems being social etc in person but then online just…not.

I am highly skeptical that you’re socially effective in person, possibly you’re adequate. It’s just people in person don’t tell you what how much of a chore it is to try to build a bridge with you.

It’s just that online your blindspots get exposed and exaggerated a whole lot more.

Simply put, you spend way too much time explaining yourself, which in the process totally blocks and rejects other’s feedback but also other’s attempts to try to build a bridge. This can come across as exhausting to me and others, and you also lace your communication with anxiety dumping. People generally don’t have much tolerance for anxiety dumping.

This visual illustrates a giant brick wall of noise from our interactions. You don’t show any of your cards, but you fucking expect me and others to accept your personal interpretations at face value.

You’re sort of breaking basic rules of communication. You suck at listening, but not just that, it seems like you’re actively distorting what you’re reading. And that might be triggering internal emotional flashbacks. But those flashbacks are in your head and past, and others have no clue what the context is or why you’re talking from that flashback. So that makes it highly confusing.

Also people who are trying to build a bridge with you, sending information with intended meaning. They feel unheard and invisible when your feedback shows total lack of comprehension of other’s meaning. And it’s another invisible hit when your feedback reflects back personal apologies and explanations, of which you offer no coherent story to incentivize us to care or be entertained by your gigantic change in sandbox topic.

Bradford

Deef ….which in the process totally blocks and rejects other’s feedback but also other’s attempts to try to build a bridge. This can come across as exhausting to me and others, and you also lace your communication with anxiety dumping. People generally don’t have much tolerance for anxiety dumping.

Deef It’s just people in person don’t tell you what how much of a chore it is to try to build a bridge with you.

Deef You don’t show any of your cards, but you fucking expect me and others to accept your personal interpretations at face value.

Deef They feel unheard and invisible when your feedback shows total lack of comprehension of other’s meaning. And it’s another invisible hit when your feedback reflects back personal apologies and explanations, of which you offer no coherent story to incentivize us to care or be entertained by your gigantic change in sandbox topic.

Deef it seems like you’re actively distorting what you’re reading.

Your words @Deef - my feelings. I can own this 100% but its still makes me angry and I know where its from.

I have a feeling of being invisible and not existing or relevant, but being expected to perform the role of empty vessel to accept a download of anxiety and distortions (gaslighting) when I read Newbies tomes or watch the Youtube clip above.

I feel angry and frustrated because of the expectation on me and the lack of any empathy for me or my existence as a seperate enitiy. There is an expectation of merging in order to understand and there is anger when that doesn’t happen. (The word count reference for example).

I feel like Im going to be lost in a maze forever because I am feeling the way she does all the time.

Deef I’m guessing that maybe we’re responding from our past frustrations with cluster B dramatic personality disorders,

These are the same feelings I get when I am around Cluster B’s (Covert/Shy/Fragile Narcissists and Quiet Borderlines more often because they tend to hide their symptoms better)

Newbie

I’m really sorry. I didn’t mean to upset anyone or make anyone feel like I’m not listening at all. I can’t begin to tell you how hopeful I felt just seeing some of this because I have just felt so lost. I really am listening and I appreciate everyone and I’m sorry I didn’t show it. And you’re right, to say I’m even socially adequate right now, might be being generous. I’m not trying to be difficult. I don’t know what to share, without over sharing and I don’t want to make anyone anxious or disturbed or annoyed or anything like that at all. I was scared to respond to something you said. So I just tried not to say too much. Not because I wasn’t listening, but completely the opposite. I’m scared that what you said is right.
And everything that’s went on has just freaked me out so badly I thought I must be losing my mind almost. I’m still very confused about exactly what even happened. I’m going to watch more and listen for now and try to be quiet until I get a grip and can respond without sounding incoherent. (Please try to forgive me) I’m really not always such a head case, believe it or not.

Bradford

And another one just popped up. Jesus H Christ! STOP IT. She is completely self centred and self obsessed and wants to be rescued.

I dont see how you build a bridge with this.

Newbie I’m really sorry. I didn’t mean to upset anyone or make anyone feel like I’m not listening at all. I can’t begin to tell you how hopeful I felt just seeing some of this because I have just felt so lost. I really am listening and I appreciate everyone and I’m sorry I didn’t show it. And you’re right, to say I’m even socially adequate right now, might be being generous. I’m not trying to be difficult. I don’t know what to share, without over sharing and I don’t want to make anyone anxious or disturbed or annoyed or anything like that at all. I was scared to respond to something you said. So I just tried not to say too much. Not because I wasn’t listening, but completely the opposite. I’m scared that what you said is right.
And everything that’s went on has just freaked me out so badly I thought I must be losing my mind almost. I’m still very confused about exactly what even happened. I’m going to watch more and listen for now and try to be quiet until I get a grip and can respond without sounding incoherent. (Please try to forgive me) I’m really not always such a head case, believe it or not.

Deef

Newbie I’m scared that what you said is right.

I suspect you gotta stop dancing around your anxiety and get closer to your core fears.. Possibly some personal journaling or basic emotional literacy?

Another idea might be to just read through your past posts, and try to see how it might come across to a third person… read it like you’re a stranger… and see what sort of vibes and emotions get evoked…

You’re so obsessed with this story line of anxiety about doing something wrong and hurting other’s feelings… that it’s actually recreating the same dynamics…. (repetition compulsion)… I’m running out of ideas of how to reach the you that’s under this looping flashback cycle…